Advice on duct layout

[rlmaier]

To all,

Sorry for the long post and the number of questions but I am trying to NOT make a huge mistake. - I'm getting ready to finally install my pipe work. A year and a half ago, I asked a bunch of questions and submitted an early design and Ed, Matt, and many others gave me input. I've now got my table saw table completed and I've got a counter installed along the South wall that will house my two Dewalt radial arm saws. So what I have now done is to take their design ideas and add the specifics. I've got the 1800 model collector and I'm planning on using 6" SD2729 pipe for the majority of the system. Hopefully I can use some of the fittings I currently have (mainly 5" metal from my old Oneida system). I've enclosed some jpeg files that describe what I am currently intending to do. As you can imagine, I know have several additional questions.

The TopView picture shows the duct layout from above the shop. The remaining pictures (each wall and the center most run) detail the fittings I'm proposing to get the system completed. After reading several posts on the importance of having a straight run into the collector, I'm showing a 4 foot straight shot into the collector. That's about as long as I can spare and still get everything turned to go to the North and South wall runs. In your opinions, will the 4 foot be enough? Too much?? If it can be shorter - that would allow me to get back to the North and South walls quicker.

I've read conflicting accounts of how important it is to add some space (or not) between the two 45 degree elbows. I'm showing them being as tight as I can get them. What are your opinions - will the 1800 system provide anough suction to really work?

In the CenterRun photo, my drawing is from the back side of the table saw table. In other words, I will be pushing boards on the tablesaw toward you. Consequently, the ducting drop I have in the picture is off the right edge of the table saw table (if standing in front of the saw blade). I've done this becuase of early suggestions I received. What I don't like about it is that it prevents me from using that end of my table saw table (5 feet front to back and 8 feet wide) as a project area. As you can see, I'm also planning on using this same run to feed my jointer and planer. I've not figured out how to add a blast gate to the tablesaw without having to get under the saw to open/close the gate. My planar is on wheels so I'll have to attach the flex hose when I want to use it.

I've got an alternative design to the CenterRun that brings the drop down on the left side of my table saw table. The two main problems I have are that it requires a longer run from the tablesaw (away from the collector, then back to it) and it prevents me from crosscutting anything of length on the left side of my tablesaw. Perhaps if I bring the drop down at the back left corner of my tablesaw this would minimize the conflict with crosscutting. Most crosscutting will be done on the right side of the blade anyway. Will the ClearView 1800 be able to handle the extra linear footage of placing the drop on the left side of the table? Does anyone have opinions on where is the better place to have a drop for a tablesaw in the center of a room - the right of left side of the table? Also, how does one anchor the down drop from a ceiling that is just over 11 foot tall? Will I have to build a column from floor to ceiling to support the drop? Has anyone designed a drop that could be flipped up when not in use - obviously not if I have to build a column?

Does anyone have a line on where I can get 6" to 5" and 4" to 3" PVC reducers? If I have to - I can get metal HVAC ones - how hard will it be to use metal fittings for these transitions?

I was just planning on buying a bunch of each kind of fittings but after actually drawing it all out - I realized that I would have way underestimated the number of fittings required. Some of the tail end of these runs go to tools I do not have yet but hopefully will in the future (like a lathe). I have left a couple fitting with caps on them so I can expand in the future . . . Have I gone way overboard on this design? Is there a way to simply it? I need to place my order with McMaster-Carr and other various vendors so I can do the work between Christmas and New Years.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Reid

[dwdrury]

Reid,

A few short comments. I didn't do a lot of study, but did notice a couple of things for your consideration.

First, I cut my little pieces to go between the 45s at 9", which yields 3" between the fittings. I'm hoping that'll be enough. There appears to be plenty of room to do that in many of your corners.

The two pipe runs on the left side of the first sketch look redundant to me. Why not get to the sanding area off the branch that goes over the belt sanding table? Put a wye just upstream of the turn for the south wall. Something also doesn't seem quite right with the sketch where you're going to drop down for the floor sweep as you're making a drop plus a 45 bend right there, and the wyes I've seen will only do one or the other.

As for the TS drop, if you move the wye for that to the branch that's heading towards the north side, then come back around a bit, you may be able to do the drop right at the corner of the TS's table, thereby getting around the loss of workspace problem.

That's all I've got for right now. Hoping others will chime in as well. Nice set of sketches!

Regards
DWD

[Jim O'Dell]

I agree with DWD, nice sketches. What program did you use?
My first thought at the overall floor plan is to flip the TS 180 degrees. You definitely want the drop on the right side of the TS, between the saw and the jointer and planer. At least you do with a left tilt saw. If you use a right tilt, it might be fine the way it is. If a right tilt, then I would consider flipping the jointer and planer to the cyclone side of the TS. Still have your drop between the three units. It can serve all three from there. I'd also do my floor sweep there and save the extra pipe headed to the west wall. Unless you plan for another tool to go there later.
The southeast wall is confusing to me. The over head shot shows there being 2 pipes running parallel about 3 or 4 feet apart. I see 2 pipes running parallel on the wall in the east wall view. If both pipes are against the wall, I would try to simplify this. Let all of those tools work off the same pipe. Probably the one in the middle of the wall and let all the outlets work off of it. Get rid of the one on the floor. If these pipes are parallel across the ceiling, again I would look for a way to combine them into one.
The approach I took with my ductwork was to make it as simple as possible. But I don't have as much room as you do, (480 sq feet plus 140 sq ft finishing room) nor as many machines, and 3 drops total. :rolleyes: One drop at my multifunction wall cabinets will work for multiple mobile tools (SCMS, RAS, Planer, downdraft sanding table, Kreg jig table, and some other ideas I can't think of right now), just not all at the same time. Another drop will work the BS plus the router table or jointer. The main drop will operate my, soon to be, 2 table saws.

For operating multiple blast gates without having to crawl around on the floor, might be a good use of the powered blast gates. There is a lot of information on the web about wiring electric actuators to open and close blast gates triggered by the tool turning on, or by a separate switch. Some will turn the cyclone on and off, but I'm not keen on that idea. I'd rather control the cyclone separately. Another idea would be a gate that has a spring to close it, and a locking choke cable to open it. I've seen some pretty ingenious mechanical controls for blast gates up at the ceiling that could probably be adapted. I'll be crossing that bridge myself with the 2 table saw set up...I'm only starting to explore the possibilities, but it will be something I can build myself, so probably mechanically operated instead of electric or pneumatic.
Hope this helps. If I'm not understanding the layouts correctly, let me know!! Jim.

[Jim O'Dell]

Just thought of a question...Do you have the tools in place now? If not, I'd get them in there and play with their locations. That will help some with your ducting. Jim.

[rlmaier]

Thanks DWD and Jim for your comments and valuable suggestions. The company I work for designed a CAD software package that I learned how to use 15 years or so years ago. Its now called Microstation. Its very labor intensive and I would love to find the time to learn Sketchup since I've read alot of good things about it. It's got to be easier that what I'm using.

As explained below, the only tool that is currently in place in the tablesaw. My two radial arm saws pretty much have to go along the center of the south wall as I've build a lower section of that cabinet to place the saws so that when I get the saw tables completed, the entire south wall top will be one consistent height.

DWD - If I understand you correctly, in your system, you've used 9" pieces of pipe between the two 45 elbows - leaving 3" between the elbows. I'm wondering what you meant by "hoping that'll be enough"? I guess I'm assuming you're happy with your system?

Yah - that SE corner has been a real pain. The problem is I have a 24 inch deep counter along the South wall that starts in the SE corner. The sanding center is installed at that corner - in the counter. So I don't really want to go thorugh the counter with a pipe - if I can come up with an alternative idea. My initial idea was to bring the pipe into the sanding center along the floor of the east wall - not the best idea. After getting your suggestions, I have done a redesign and have enclosed the drawing for your comments. The only thing I don't really like is that I now have 2 blast gates that will have to be opened when I use the belt sander. DWD suggested another alternative that would prevent the two blast gates but would involve an additional drop to go into the sanding center in the same manner that I am with this design. If you guys think that is a better design I will go with that.

I've got an old Delta Unisaw that is a right tilt model. My problem at this point is the table saw table has been built around the saw and it would require a considerable effort to even move it much less rotate the whole thing 180 degrees. But I will if it makes my design that much better. Obviously, there is some advantage to having the jointer and planer on one edge of the table saw or the other (based on the tilt of the blade) - can you please eloborate on that logic? It seems the pictures I've seen in workshop galleries, the majority had the jointer and the planer on the short side of the table saw table. My alternative suggestion would have the drop coming down off the left rear corner of the table saw table - near the dust collection port of the jointer. This scenario removes the problem with the blast gate being under the saw table. However, in this scenario, I'll have to start the pipe from the TS heading away for the collector, pick up the jointer and planer runs then up to the ceiling, then back to the collector. I've enclosed a drawing of this as well. Will the 1800 system provide enough suction for the high CFM requirements of these machines if I pipe in the manner of this drawing? In either scenario, do you recommend that I build a column from floor to ceiling to support the vertical run of pipe?

What are your opinions regarding the length of straight pipe heading into the collector? Can I get away with less than 4 feet or is that the minimum? Although I'm not sure how to accomplish it, as I exit the closet with the collector, I will be approx. 18 inches under my ceiling - I'll have to get the pipe up to the ceiling somehow as quick as I can. Will a couple 22 degree elbows inline with the straight run hurt me much?

I will have to spend the time to do some reading on the powered blast gates. I've got a couple friends that have been pestering me to do that as well. Since they've been a huge help to get me where I currently am with the shop - guess I had better not ignore their requests.

Have either of you tried to integrate metal fittings with pvc? How are the two fastened together - sheet metal screws and caulk? I can get smooth metal transition adapters to go from 6 to 5 inches from HVAC dealers or I've seen Woodcraft sells a universal 6" to 1" adapter ( http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001850/9227/6-to-1-Universal-Adapter.aspx ) that is anything but a smooth transition but I don't know yet if it will fit in/over the 6" pipe.

Again, thanks much for your comments and am looking forward to the continued advice.

Reid

[Jim O'Dell]

Yes, I like the revamped east wall better.

Ok, right tilt....questions....since you have a RAS and I'm thinking a Miter Saw (I know you said 2 RAS) then my guess is you use them to cut down long boards to rough size. But if you were doing some final cuts on the TS with a long board, which way would you normally put the long piece you were saving....right or left of the blade? If to the right, then having the pipe on the left would be fine. If to the left, like I do because of my miter sled is always on the left of the blade, then the pipe needs to be off the extension to the right, This is how I have mine set up. The pipe comes down about 6-8" off the end of the right extension table, and there is enough room to cross cut a 12" wide piece that would stick out that side before it hits the duct. So a little to the right, and a little behind the right corner of the extension table, just in case I have something really long that would require room on both sides, which I have had to do 2 times. Having these situations accounted for is what I would use to determine where the pipe would come down. Then the jointer and planer are just beyond the pipe so they aren't in the way of a long crosscut of a 12" wide board. Does this make sense? Which ever way works best for how you work would determine if the pipe is to the left or the right of the blade. Jim.

[rlmaier]

Hi Jim,

Ok - that all makes good sense - thank you very much for explaining. In my first basement shop - before I had room for a table saw table, I did the majority of my crosscutting with the sled on the left of the blade - as you describe. Now that I have the room on the right, I'm using that side for the majority of my crosscutting. And I will soon have access again to my radial arms saws for crosscutting as well.

Sorry - a few other questions I still need answered - will the Clear View 1800 collector be able to pull sufficiently if I locate my drop to the left read side of my table (given that it will initially be going away from the collector)??? Is 4 feet of straight pipe enough going into the collector? Am I better going with 2 - 45 elbows ( or 22 degree elbows) to get up to the ceiling or is a short length of 6 inch flex a better way to go? Anybody have experience integrating HVAC metal fittings into a PVC pipe system? Anybody used Woodcrafts 6 to 1 plastic fittings? What are woodworkers doing to support their vertical drops from ceiling higher than 11 feet?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Reid

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi Jim, snip
Sorry - a few other questions I still need answered - will the Clear View 1800 collector be able to pull sufficiently if I locate my drop to the left read side of my table (given that it will initially be going away from the collector)???
I think you'll find that the CV1800 will be plenty powerful. Early on I was told by someone on one of the forums to quit stressing about my questions on the nit picky things for the ducting. This unit has plenty of power to overcome several design shortfalls. Now, I feel that on long runs, complicated designs will hurt performance. But over a 25-30' run, I doubt it would be too critical.

Is 4 feet of straight pipe enough going into the collector?
Probably. If you can get 5-7' without creating other problems, it would be better. I have 5" to my first 6-6-6 wye where I dropped to my current table saw. With the new saw hopefully to be here by the end of the month, I'm changing my shop around some, and I won't be using that drop. I'm considering taking the wye out and installing a straight pipe, but we'll see.
Am I better going with 2 - 45 elbows ( or 22 degree elbows) to get up to the ceiling or is a short length of 6 inch flex a better way to go?
Definitely avoid flex when you can. The rough interior of the flex is worse than the 90 degree els, so I understand. The roughness induces turbulence that disrupts air flow. My flex at the bandsaw is only 3" between the pieces of pipe. Just enough to isolate the ducting from the saw. At the TS, it's about 15". The new saw will be trimmed down to about the length of the BS. I do have about 4' of flex going to my TS overhead pick up. It's a little longer than it needs to be, but I knew I'd be making changes before long, and didn't want to make the mistake of cutting it too short.
Anybody have experience integrating HVAC metal fittings into a PVC pipe system?
I can't help you much there. The only place I used HVAC was a 8-6-6 wye on my exhaust. I built a straight exhaust piece to replace the factory 90 for the filters, used the 8-6-6 fitting to two louvered exhaust outlets to exhaust outside. It seems like I had to use a small piece of 6" PVC pipe over the metal 6" outlet so that the flex hose would fit on it tightly. So it should be sized to fit inside the pipe.
Anybody used Woodcrafts 6 to 1 plastic fittings?
Not me.;)
What are woodworkers doing to support their vertical drops from ceiling higher than 11 feet?
My ceilings are 7'8 1/2" in the main part of the shop. The North 4' is 7'7" (building was originally a car port, and this is the "locker" section for storage where the concrete was slightly higher than the parking area). The drop to my BS went to a "platform on stilts" where I had a blast gate mounted. The 4" take off for the BS was above that, and the outlet was for the hook up to the router table and future jointer. That held it up well. But that is now dismantled, and won't be used again. My drop to the TS went to a "sled"on wheels because I designed it to disconnect from the wye off the main pipe with 4 bolts in the blast gate so I could move it all out of the way so I could pull my 3/4 ton extended van into the shop if hail was approaching. I'll have to devise something similar on the new drop. All my big machines have to be mobile for this purpose. My van won't fit the opening to the garage...too tall. I only have about 1 1/2" to spare at the shop, and I built the opening to fit when I did the basic rehab on the building when we moved in 5 1/2 years ago.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Hope this helps some. Sorry the posts here have been so erratic. The cable company finally got the problems fixed about 40 minutes ago. Speed is back to normal, and I have the router hooked back up so LOML and I can both work on line at the same time. Now let's see if they follow through on their offers of the 70 some odd dollars credit for the next bill!!!:rolleyes: Jim.

[rlmaier]

Jim,

Great - thanks much for your responses. It good to know that I can screw up some of my design and the collector will still work sufficiently.

What type of table saw are you expecting? Boy - that's the kind of christmas present I'd sure like to be getting! And - good luck with your credit on your bill - sounds alot like what I have to put up with on my cable company.

Reid

[Jim O'Dell]

Glad to help, Reid.

I've had a Ridgid 3612 contractor saw for about 7 years. It's a great little saw, and I won't let it go. It's staying in the shop. But I've wanted a cabinet saw for a while. The deal I worked out with my wife is I only use my spiff money from work for tools. That's how I got my CV1800 and duct work, MM E16 bandsaw, 10" Hitachi SCMS, 2 PC Routers, Woodpecker router lift, Incra fence system and Delta 52-580 planer. I've caught all of it on really good sales. I've been saving since last Christmas for this. Started with about 200.00 after splurging on parallel clamps last Dec. I'm about 100.00 away from getting the Grizzly G0691. It has a Leeson 3 hp motor, 50" rip fence system, and a true riving knife. I was tempted to settle along the way for something that didn't have the riving knife, but I'm sticking it out to get what I want. I figure with a small Christmas bonus from work I'll be over the top. Hopefully will get some money for Christmas and can splurge on a couple new blades for it. This is the first time I've been this excited at Christmas time in a long time, thanks to 20 some odd years in retail electronics. :eek: :D Thanks for asking! :rolleyes: Jim.

[Crafted]

Hey Jim,

Please excuse my ignorance as I don't know much about grizzly. In Canada general & general international are the two saws I tend to ear more about

my real question for you is why would you not go for a sawstop? I'm assuming it might be $$ but only because I really know nothing about grizzly. I have a general int cabinet saw and if I had thought about it more at the time I would have bought a sawstop instead. I think they run around ~$3500 with the 52" fence. Once I'm done spending the bank on dust collection and recover I'm going to be replacing my one saw for the sawstop. I believe it comes with some sort of crazy riving knife that is suppose to really help with dust control too

anyway, just curious!

[Jim O'Dell]

Yeah, purely money. I'd love to have a SawStop, but that's not going to happen. The General is the saw I would have bought 2 years ago if I had the money. Those saws are built like tanks. But for the money, the Grizzly G0691 is a heck of a saw. Exact same saw as the Laguna Platinum series that they sell for 1695.00 on sale. But the Laguna doesn't have the riving knife, just the guard knife that goes up and down and tilts with the blade. Griz actually comes with both. The Laguna does have a section of extruded aluminum on the miter fence. :rolleyes: The G0691 has the most for the money, a cast iron trunnion that is massive, and a Leeson 3 hp motor instead of a no name motor. Right now, shipped for 1215.00. Anything else with the same features, besides the Laguna, would take me 2 more years of saving, and not get the shop finished where I feel I can actually build something.
The new Saw Stop Professional series is right at 3 grand, plus tax and shipping. That probably comes up to the 3500.00 you are talking about. I tried to win 2 of them back in the summer, but they didn't draw my name! :D I would have sold the Ridgid if I had won both of them. ;) Jim.