Mini without a shop vac?

[GabrielB]

Hi everyone,

I recently bought a blower vac conversion lid. I was looking for a simple, affordable and effective dust extraction system for my very limited shop space. (I live downtown in the city and I have access to this small garage).

I have Festools tools which have good dust extraction abilities so I figured I wouldn't need the most powerful machine available until I have the space to greet it. I do all the table saw jobs with with my Festool saw + rails. Yes it's not perfect. And the router table is another story but it's much better than anything else...

So... Now having tried this system I was wondering if I could make it better for 2 reasons:
1) The space the shop vac + conversion lid occupy could be reduced. I don't mind having a much smaller canister.
2) The shop vac I bought for this is LOUD!! (Rigid WD1670) I cannot get past how loud it is....

So if I'd want to use the mini on its own without a shop vac, I would need an impeler, blower housing, a motor, filters and some sort of structure to hold everything in place, right? But the blower housing and impeler sold here are incompatible with the mini, right? too big...

So what do I do?
I'd like to make this quick and easy so if there's isn't any other way than to build custom made impelers, housings, etc. perhaps I'm gonna be looking at some other solution.

Any idea?
You might be asking why I didn't get the 1400 in the first place. Well I liked the idea of an all in one solution (portable shop vac + dust extraction system). But now I think I may have made a mistake... Also the noise my new shop vac makes is intolerable...

Cheers,
Gabriel

[McRabbet]

Here is a solution to your problem -- too bad you didn't ask here in the Forum before you fired off your order -- the Festool Extractor is very quiet and the bucket and Mini CV06 ride very comfortably on top of it. This isn't mine, but it belongs to a colleague here in western NC who bought his CV06 and CV1800 at the same time I bought both of mine. My CV06 sits on a bucket next to my noisy 16-gallon Shop Vac -- but I wear earmuffs, too.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/Clear_View_CV6_on_my_shop_vac.JPG

Hope this helps.

[bababrown]

GabrielB,
Most of us who use the Ridgids and other cheap shop vacs use them very intermittently and we wear ear plugs. These produce static vacuums of roughy 100 inches water column and 100 CFM of volume flow rate. Dust collectors produce more like 10 inches of static pressure and 1000 CFM flow rate. A dust collector, or dust collector blower, hooked to a mini will not provide acceptable performance. This is especially true when hooked up to a tool with a 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch port.
I can think of several options for you to consider. One is to use ear plugs, earmuffs, or noise canceling headphones and live with the noise. Another is to use a Festool or a Fein vacuum to power the mini. The Fein is especially quiet. If I read your note correctly you have the conversion lid and hence you would need to make an adapter to connect the vac to the blower mount on the lid. You also would need to combine these mechanically to move it around. Alternatively, you could use longer hoses. These vacs are pricey and the approach is clumsy. I have no idea where to get a power head like one from one of those units.
The last approach would be to put the Ridgid rig in a sound enclosure. There are several notes in the threads on building sound enclosures. You could make the enclosure stationery and run longer hoses or you could make the enclosure portable. I know none of these give you the integrated approach you desire. Good luck,
bababrown

[GabrielB]

Hi guys!

I have neglected my own thread!
I'm still here though and still actively searching for a solution. I hope you're still up for helping me!

OK here are some facts that may help continue the discussion
- I don't need the unit to be portable. Yes it would be a plus what's important for me is getting the best system and the performance I need for the tools I have in the smallest and quietest solution.
- I need the unit to be small because of my extremely limited space. (Hence I didn't get the CV1800/1400) --> I will fasten the dust system on the ceiling and wall! :D
- Most of my dust making tools are Festool so dust collection is well thought of at the base, which may come important concerning the power I really need.
- Noise is important for me not because I mind wearing earplugs but because I live in the city and you can hear the Rigid screaming two blocks down and I like to have a good relationship with my neighbors. :)

McRabbet, I had bought the Rigid as a cheap way to power the cvmini but in reality I don't need it to be portable (and that big!). Yes the Festool mini might be a solution to power up the cvmini but I have a concern about its power. Some say it's not powerful enough using the router and saws. In fact if I had not been doubtful about its power I think I would have gotten this cvmini/ctmini or ct22 combo. (and also the Rigid solution was much cheaper :o but now I regret it...)

Baba, when you speak about the differences between the shop vac and the DC you're talking about the idea to use DC components to power off the mini?

I had seen this thread here (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/showthread.php?t=919) where Matt explains in short the differences between a shop vac and a DC. So using a motor, impeller and such made for DC for powering up the mini (as I had mentionned in my first post), I will end up with less power than if I used a shop vac? Do I understand this correctly?

If that's the case then it leaves me with two options. 1) Get components that will power up the mini with the adequate specs: about 100" static and as much CFM as a can (but that seems dauting) 2) Get a shop vac that is quieter and smaller. Fein I is 116CFM & 90" static pressure, III is 126 CFM & 99" static pressure. Festool mini is 99CFM and 80" and static pressure, ct22 is 134CFM & 90" static pressure.

The CT22 seems the most powerful CFM wise but then again I don't yet understand the static pressure factor and how it influences airflow.

But will shop vacs and cvmini combos be powerful enough to get adequate dust collection results for tools like the router, router table, and such?


Cheers,
Gabriel

[bababrown]

Gabrielle,
Yes I was referring to using a dust collector blower to power a mini. They do not produce enough static pressure. I think of static pressure as the force that drives air through the system much like voltage drives current through circuit resistance (I'm an EE). I think you will find that the bigger Fein and Festool vacs produce as much static pressure and flow as does the Ridgid. The problem is first finding the numbers for each vac and then finding out the conditions under which they measure the pressure and flow. I haven't seen numbers on the Ridgid. I have trouble believing that Fein and Festool can get more than 100 CFM through 1" or 1-1/4" hoses. I think they probably measure flow without the hose and in fact get much less through the small hose.
Is there any way you can beg, borrow, or steal a Fein or Festool to try with your mini?
bababrown

[dwdrury]

GabrielB:

I have an older Fein Turbo III and am currently using it to power a Mini. I used an old Craftsman shop vac's barrel for the collection container. Works well, as I tried to document in the Mini gallery.

But after tripping over all the hoses for a while, I also acquired a Turbo I on close out, as they were introducing the new "big butt" style for their collection containers.

Plan is to mount both the Mini and the Turbo I side by side on a 24" or so diameter piece of ply. That diameter will fit either the old 32 gal. Craftsman barrel I have or the 55 gal drum that came with my old Delta DC, and thus provide the sort of "all in one" unit that seems the holy grail in these threads. But larger than Jason's and Ed's solutions, and thus not the easily moved and transported sort they were striving towards.

But for your application, might work well.

I'm using the standard shop vac hose, nominally 2.5", but the Turbo I came with the 1.25" dia hose.

Saw the new style with the big butt in a store a week or so ago, probably would still work as one could orient the large bootie of their new barrel away from the cyclone.

I can attest the Feins are very quiet. Though the specs are slightly different, the motor and housing for the Turbo I and III look identical, and I can't help but speculate the ratings difference is due solely to the hose diameter standard with each unit.

The other thing I really like about the Feins is you can flip two switches and plug your tool into the unit, then use the unit's on/off switch to also turn on and off the Fein. I've even used it with the Shopsmith and it is capable. But not with the Shopsmith planer as that operation really sucks juice, so much so I use a dedicated 30 amp 110 circuit when I'm running it.

The really bad news is the Feins aren't cheap. Unless you can find a local hardware store wanting to clear out old stock (as I did) then your best bets are probably Jamestown Distributors, Coastal Tool, and Savannah Tool House.

Will post photos when I get the new contraption built, but I've really been slowed on shop projects. Ducting for the big cyclone isn't done though in progress, then I have some house repair to do, then a project for the mother in law, then I might be able to get to the revised Mini installation. Worst part is I seem only able to put in a few hours a week now as opposed to 4 to 5 hours per day previously. So progress will be very slow. Hence my description instead of photos of results. Sorry!

Regards,
DWD

[GabrielB]

Hi guys!

Thanks for your input. Highly appreciated.
Baba, unfortunately I don't know anyone with a Festool or a Fein.
If we take the specs they give us and don't consider real life operation, what would be more powerful? 126 CFM and 99" static pression (Fein III) or 134 CFM and 90" (CT22). Is there a way to calculate their suction power with these two variables combined? I'm far from an EE. :)

Dwd, thanks for your input. I certainly appreciate the time you took to write this! I think I'm now leaning towards getting a CT 22 simply because it will integrate better with the system, even if from my readings Fein seems to be quieter and perhaps more powerful.

This is weird, I really had no intention to buy a shop vac, thinking something else could power the cyclone at a better price. But I think I will enjoy the plus of being able to move the dust extraction system from time to time.


But I'd really like to understand how exactly static pressure affect the suction and power of a shop vac. I understand the principal but don't get how mathematically it correlates to the CFM and other variables. Perhaps Baba you could enlighten me a little more? :) I searched on the web of course and searched on Bill Pentz's website but didn't seem to do it appropriately it seems to get an answer to this apparently basic stuff.

Thanks again,
Now... How do I unglue the mini from the rigid adapter and can Ed take it back... :rolleyes:
DWD, I hope you'll be able to go back to some wood projects, since this is what it's all about, isn't it?
Cheers,
Gabriel

[dwdrury]

GabrielB,

So far as power is concerned, amperage draw is the key as that can be converted to motor horsepower. For any given HP, one can design air pumps that favor CFM or suction pressure, essentially trading one for the other. When you get down to it, the specs you quote on both are adequate. In practical use I doubt you'd notice much difference. Now, were you trying to lift a column of water out of a soggy basement, then the higher suction pressure Fein would mean you could run a slightly longer tube. Otherwise, the difference is nearly meaningless, IMHO.

Another consideration for you would be the cost and availability of any consumables. One can adapt a CleanStream "Red Stripe" HEPA filter to the Feins, and they're relatively cheap at about $30 apiece, which beats the $100 or so Fein wants for a HEPA filter. No idea what one can do with the Festool or how much their HEPA filters cost. (Cue for others to chime in.)

One final point, just for clarification: my old Craftsman barrel has casters, and the Delta also came with a dolly, so either way they can be moved about. What I've found in my smallish shop is that I tend not to move them around much. The Delta, for example, is currently hooked up to some 5" ducting I ran years ago, so the only time it moves is when I empty it.

If you do decide to on something like this, bear in mind you don't need a big collection bucket on the vac itself (around the filter) as most of the dust and all of the chips will end up in the barrel you supply. So, and again using the Feins only as an example, instead of the Turbo III with its large capacity, you could save some bucks and go with the Turbo I.

Regards,
DWD

[bababrown]

Gabrielle & DW,
I think DW has it right with comparing the wattages. The Festool CT 22 and CT 33 both draw 1200 watts maximum. The Fein Turbo III also is 1200 watts whereas the I and II are listed at 1000 and 1050 watts, respectively in the Woodcraft catalog. The product of static pressure and air flow rate also is a measure of power although the measurements are not concurrent. Note that 90" X 134 CFM is almost the same as 99" X 126 CFM. The higher static pressure should drive more air through any given duct or hose but the numbers are close enough that you won't see much difference. How you connect the units, especially hose diameter, will make more difference.
Other things are more important. HEPA filters are too expensive to change very often so you want the cyclone and you want the least expensive HEPA filter. Last night I measured the sound power level of my Ridgid shop vac at 83 dB at 3 feet. (Their $12 muffler got it to 82 dB. Wow!) The Turbo III is listed at 58 dB (57.8) or some 25 dB lower. The Festool is listed at 72 dB or 11 dB below the Ridgid. If loudness is very important to you the Fein is much quieter.
DW. I have a hard time believing that Fein and Festool can get values like 116 to 134 CFM through these small diameter hoses. I calculate velocities over 13,000 FPM. I do not have a 1.25" hose or a Pitot tube but it occurs to me that current readings with and without the small hose connected would give a very good indication. What do you think?
bababrown

[dwdrury]

I checked Fein's site. Specs:

__________"H20________CFM_________Watts
Turbo I _____90_________116_________1000
Turbo III ____99_________126_________1200

At first I reckoned the different specs were due to the difference in standard hose as the I comes with 1.25" whereas the III comes with 2.5". But after seeing the wattage, I must admit there might be a slight difference in the motors and impellers under the very similar plastic housings. Could be they rate with no hose.

Didn't take a close look at the new Turbo I at the store, but connection port on earlier versions including mine are also good for 2.5" hoses. It is the hose end that's different, essentially adapting a 1.25" hose to a 2.5" port.

I use the CleanStream filters in pairs as one can wash them out with a garden hose as they're made of Goretex. In this humid environ, takes a day or two for them to dry out. At under $30 each, up front cost isn't too bad and there hasn't been any recurring charge as they last. I also use them in an old Genie vac I use for the cars.

I can attest the Feins are quiet. Especially as compared to that old Craftsman screamer I had until it died. Hooked up to the Shopsmith so they both come on at the same time, if it weren't for the suction, would hardly know the thing was on. In fairness, the Festool also has a reputation for being a solid, quiet tool, just maybe not quite so quiet. Really, either would be a fine (no pun intended) addition to your collection, and the choice between the two would be personal preference or "other", like the filters cost, style or color, whatever.

Regards,
DWD

[Matt]

Hi,

I just wanted to say that the ridgid wd1665 is rated at 187 cfm @ 51 inches of static pressure and 12 amps and did not find a rated sound level but as someone else stated did measure about 82-85 @ 10 feet. I would have to say that the forementioned vaccums would pull more cfm through a smaller hose than the ridgid because of the higher SP.

Matt

[GabrielB]

Hey guys I just wanted to say a big thanks for your contribution! Very helpful information here.

BTW I'm happy to know the Rigid had a SP of 51". I don't know where you got that info Matt. I had tried in vain to find it...

I have ordered a CT22 even though I know they are coming with a better and improved and sexier CT26 next year or so. I was attracted with the Fein because of their noise levels and in the end Festool won because of their compatibility with my other Festool tools.

cheers

[Matt]

Hi,

I don't remember where i found it the last time but I have found it here (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/THDProductCompare?errorURL=ProductAttributeErrorVi ew&prodComp_3=100096269&prodComp_0=100619000&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&remProdId=100021998&prodComp_2=100081216&N=10000003%2090401%20527239) which is on the home depot site so not sure where they got it. It seems to me I downloaded the sheet from their(ridgid) site but I cannot for the life of me find it now!

Matt

[GabrielB]

Maybe that's why I didn't find it. I was looking for the specs for the 1670.

[daxinarian]

Hi guys!

Thanks for your input. Highly appreciated.
Baba, unfortunately I don't know anyone with a Festool or a Fein.
If we take the specs they give us and don't consider real life operation, what would be more powerful? 126 CFM and 99" static pression (Fein III) or 134 CFM and 90" (CT22). Is there a way to calculate their suction power with these two variables combined? I'm far from an EE. :)

Dwd, thanks for your input. I certainly appreciate the time you took to write this! I think I'm now leaning towards getting a CT 22 simply because it will integrate better with the system, even if from my readings Fein seems to be quieter and perhaps more powerful.

This is weird, I really had no intention to buy a shop vac, thinking something else could power the cyclone at a better price. But I think I will enjoy the plus of being able to move the dust extraction system from time to time.


But I'd really like to understand how exactly static pressure affect the suction and power of a shop vac. I understand the principal but don't get how mathematically it correlates to the CFM and other variables. Perhaps Baba you could enlighten me a little more? :) I searched on the web of course and searched on Bill Pentz's website but didn't seem to do it appropriately it seems to get an answer to this apparently basic stuff.

Thanks again,
Now... How do I unglue the mini from the rigid adapter and can Ed take it back... :rolleyes:
DWD, I hope you'll be able to go back to some wood projects, since this is what it's all about, isn't it?
Cheers,
Gabriel

Unfortunately you can't get what you need from the data points you have. The 99" and 90" of static pressure are what the vacs will produce when you plug the end (no flow). The 126 cfm and 134 cfm is how much air they suck when there are no obstructions, or minimal static pressure (possibly even removing the hose, and if they are really dishonest... without the filter). What you really need is a performance chart that shows CFM vs static pressure for a variety of conditions. After that you can calculate the static pressure of your system at various CFM (CFM=velocity*area). The equation to calculate is as follows:
SP=(1/2)*cf*(k*L/D)*p*v^2
where:
cf is the co-efficient of friction for the pipe
k is a shape factor (straight pipe is 1, values for other shapes can be looked up)
L is length of pipe
D is diameter of pipe
p is density of air
v is velocity of air
to convert from v to CFM the equation becomes
SP=(8/pi^2)*cf*k*L*p*cfm^2/D^5
(notice, the D^5 means that a for a given CFM, 1" hose will have a static pressure loss 32 times higher than a 2" hose and 7776 times higher than 6" duct)

So then you plot the fan perfomance curve and your SP loss curve and where they intersect is the performance you will get. I did that for two ficticious vacs and a ficticious duct work and attached the graph. One vac has a linear relationship between SP and CFM while the other is more curved (note these are totally made up, the real curves might have a totally different shape). As you can see, even though VAC B has a higher SP and CFM rating, because of the shape of the curves, VAC A actually moves more CFM when attached to the system.

All this is rather academic though since you probably will never get the performance curves of the vacs, nor will you really know the static pressure graph for the cyclone due to the wide range of unknowns. (I guess I used a lot of words to say you can't do it)

My advice is that if you want to use the "better" of the two, buy both, do a quick test and return the one that didn't work as well. Or pick one and forever assume that the other one would have been better.